John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the MarTech podcast, hosted by my friend, Ben Shapiro, brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with episodes you can listen to in under 30 minutes, the MarTech podcast shares stories from world class marketers who use technology to generate growth and achieve big business and career success. Recent episode, one of my favorite extending the lifetime value of your customer. You know, I love to talk about that. Listen to the MarTech podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:43): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Tripp Lanier. He’s a professional coach host of the new man podcast beyond the macho jerk and the new age wimp. He’s also the author of a book we’re gonna talk about today called this book will make you dangerous. The, I irreverent, that’s a hard word to say, guy for men who refused to settle. So trip, welcome to the

Tripp Lanier (01:07): Show. Thanks John. I had somebody say it was the irrelevant guide for, uh . Yeah. That’s

John Jantsch (01:12): That’s that’s the tricking part. Yeah, you, you, you definitely just different meanings there. so let’s, let’s start with, um, the fact that, uh, being a man in some ways has taken a beating lately. Um, and yet I think some of the, um, unfortunately some of the attributes that a lot of people attribute with manhood, um, you know, are on full sort of raw display these last couple years. so kind of maybe walk me through a little bit of where you are positioning this idea of what it means to be a man.

Tripp Lanier (01:45): Well, I don’t know what it means to be a man. I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t claim to take that position. I just tend to serve men primarily that’s that’s who my, my practice is based around when I got into personal growth and personal development, it was primarily a woman’s domain, you know? Yeah. Oprah was the one everyone was gunning to have their, their book featured on, on her show. So there wasn’t really a voice in the personal growth, spiritual growth self-help development world for, for men and, and wonderfully. Now it’s much more normal to read books that, that also are aimed at men in that, in that domain. So I grew outta that. I mean, I started podcasting in this arena, you know, 13 plus years ago and, and it’s great. It’s great to it. There’s so many other voices and there’s so much more diversity in that,

John Jantsch (02:27): But you do take a position, uh, or at least I’m gonna suggest you, you are by just your subtitle beyond the macho jerk and the new age wimp. So, uh, you are landing, you are landing somewhat on kind of where you think it, uh, it, it is today to be a man.

Tripp Lanier (02:43): I don’t know an you guys that wanna be either of those, right. Nobody’s standing, I say, wait a second, I’m a new age jerk, a new age win. Or I’m a macho jerk. Nobody wants to be either one of those guys. So it’s a, it’s fun to play with that polarization. And it’s a challenge to anybody say, can we evolve? Yeah. Can we be more integrated? Can we have brains? Can we have heart? Can we have spine? Um, and so it’s a, it’s a call. It’s a challenge to say, let’s, let’s start to look beyond some of these outdated old models and see what is becoming or what’s evolving and what’s available for us. And

John Jantsch (03:13): I think also a lot of in, in what I’ve read, I think you’re also a lot of you’re saying that you don’t get to find that it’s really more about being true to yourself. I mean, that’s, we’re gonna talk, uh, on, on your show about my latest book, the self reliant entrepreneur. And I say that all the time, the self parts on you. I mean, I , I’ve just given you some things to think about, but you’re the only one that can define what it means to be self reliant. And I think you’re saying that to some degree as well, aren’t you?

Tripp Lanier (03:36): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a big part of my work is a even working with people on their businesses is how, how does this reflect you? How does this reflect who you are, who you’re becoming in this lifetime, instead of, I need to prove I’m a man, or I need to prove I’m strong, or I need to prove this or any of that other kind of stuff. It’s well, who are you really when you’re not pleasing when you’re not protecting, when you’re not proving, what’s naturally coming through you and as you in this lifetime. And then, and ultimately we want our relationships and our businesses to reflect that too. Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:04): Cuz you, you, you see, so often people chasing what they see people doing on Facebook or what they think a business should be, or, you know, top line revenue numbers, because that’s, you know, fun to go talk about, you know, with other people. And I think that probably gets in the way of true success, probably more than any other dynamic.

Tripp Lanier (04:20): I’ve worked with a lot of quote successful guys that, uh, are scratching their head, wondering where they went wrong. They feel trapped, they feel drained, they feel isolated. They feel bored, overwhelmed, chronically worried from the outside. It looks like they got it all together. I was a version of this, you know, after my first business and it’s, I, I, I propose in the book, maybe there’s another way for us to propo, to, you know, approach our work, to approach our professions in the world where we’re no longer looking to an external authority. Hey, tell me what to do or tell me how to measure up or tell me what hoops to jump through and start to ask some of those deeper questions and say, you know, I don’t know how much longer I’ve got on this planet. So how do I really wanna play?

John Jantsch (04:58): So you start your book off with, um, uh, part the title, of course. And I think it’s probably a word that merit’s defining, you know, what, what does it mean to be dangerous,

Tripp Lanier (05:07): Right? Yeah. What does it mean to be dangerous? Well, in our rather cushy modern world danger could be like, I, I can’t go a day without high speed internet. I can’t go right. Right. You know, like if you watch, how, how people get spun out about traffic or not have having internet, like I said, are not having their favorite, whatever. At, at the, at the coffee shop, we, we really do give up our peace of mind around these things. And so we’re starting to see how we’ve adapted. We’re no longer in any real danger to our survival per se, but that doesn’t mean that our nervous systems, aren’t still scanning for what we have now perceive to be as dangerous. And I, I would block that into three basic categories, something that threatens our sense of comfort, something that threatens our sense of safety or certainty, you know, to my time or energy or money. And then the third one, the big one is something that threatens my self image. I can’t look like a failure. I can’t look like a loser. What will they think of me? So by and large, when people come to me and they say, I’m not, I’m not having XYZ in my life. I’m not getting there. I know somewhere we’re gonna, we’re gonna come up against one of these three things. And that’s what they’re committed to. They’re committed to protecting their sense of comfort, their sense of certainty and their self image.

John Jantsch (06:15): You and I are recording this as in the first month of 2021. I, I mean, I would suggest that that COVID was a real wakeup for a lot of people in that regard. I mean, it, it, it showed them how comfortable they were, didn’t it?

Tripp Lanier (06:25): It did. It showed them how comfortable they were. I think we’re all dealing with. I mean, I’ve lost, lost a member of my family, very close member of my family just two weeks ago from COVID. So it’s, it’s not that we don’t have dangers in our world, but by and large, I think we’re starting to get a sense of perspective. And I’ve got a lot of people coming to me and saying, you know, CO’s put this in perspective. I’ve been playing small, I’ve been holding back. I don’t want to do that anymore. I’ve been using, I’ve been waiting for permission to show up as my biggest self. I’ve been waiting for, you know, something to come along and gimme the green light to make this shift in my business. I’m tired of waiting. Want to go for it now,

John Jantsch (07:00): Do, do you find that folks that you work with in some ways, um, if they’re feeling stuck, it’s that they’re too comfortable. I mean, and, and I guess the flip side of that question, or the second part of that question is, do you suggest that, that we have to actually look for ways to sort of intentionally, you know, stimulate that uncomfortable, uh, gene?

Tripp Lanier (07:18): No, I wanna be really clear. I I’ve worked with some pretty out. I’ve worked with some outliers. I mean, I’m special operatives, Navy seals, you know, people that, that work in, in really intense situations, I’m not, I don’t consider myself one of those people. I really enjoy being comfortable. I really enjoy a certain degree of, of, of safety and certainty. Certainly like looking good. So I’m not one of these people that needs to like go the other direction and, and be out of balance in that way. Look, I’ll, I’ll prove to the world that I, I really am tough and I, I’m not playing it small. I think, I think it’s really about getting smart and what’s worthwhile. And so when, when I start to have these conversations and I start to get in touch with help a guy get in touch with what he’s really trying to create in his lifetime.

Tripp Lanier (07:59): And then we start to see what his obstacles are. And we put him out in front of him. Most of the time, it’s like that, like that kid that comes in the room in the middle of the night says there’s a monster under the bed. And it’s like, well, let’s go grab a flashlight. And we go look, and there’s really nothing there. And they say, wow, I can’t believe I’ve been holding back because I was so afraid of this thing. And in that moment, they’re like, you know what? It’s just not worth. It’s not gonna be, be that bad. I’m, I’m willing to be a little bit uncomfortable here. I’m willing to take a little bit of a risk I’m willing who cares if somebody thinks I’m a little strange or a little weird if I go in that direction. And so a lot of it is them coming to terms with it themselves and saying, you know what, I’m just, I, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna be on my deathbed and be pleased that I played it so safe. I can take on a little bit of what seems dangerous.

John Jantsch (08:41): So I’ve been kind of, uh, this has been a soapbox topic for me of late. Um, a lot of stress has caused around this, this sort of monitoring, uh, mantra that we have to find our purpose and, you know, live our purpose. And I was kind of happy to see you pushing back a little bit on that, that, that, that idea of I’m gonna sit in a room one day and decide what I was meant to do. However, I do think a lot of people fall trapped to that. Don’t

Tripp Lanier (09:05): They? I do. I, I’m glad you brought this up. I see a lot of people get wrapped around the axle, especially guys that have maybe done well for themselves. And they’re starting to sense like, oh, okay, I can create money. I can create this sense of comfort and status, but there’s gotta be more meaning. And I think that that desire for more meaning is inherently a natural part of our development. Okay. It’s not just about meaning anymore. It’s about something bigger than me. And then they tend to look at this purpose thing. Well, my life must be lacking purpose. And so I say, well, what if purpose isn’t necessarily a thing we latch onto, right? My, my purpose in life isn’t to make sure that all puppies have healthy candy or , whatever it might be. But we, our egos tend

John Jantsch (09:48): To, that was a randomly specific, uh, example. They found

Tripp Lanier (09:52): I hear some weird things, but, but idea is that we go looking for a story. And I think most of the time when we’re looking for that story, it says, my purpose is X, Y, Z, it’s this outcome, it’s this cause that we’ve really lost touch with what that really means. That’s really just our ego looking for more kind of like I’m okay. And I’m important. We’re kind of moving up, moving up the ladder. And in that regard, when I say, well, if we were to really look at your choices in life, if we were to look at the purpose, the reason why you do these things, we’d start to see that you’re really most committed to being comfortable, to being certain and safe, to making sure that you look good. And then I’m much a, a different process that I work people through to help them start to see, well, what do you want beyond just those three things?

John Jantsch (10:36): Yeah. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of those, like you said, whatever it is that, that the mission that you’ve decided is gonna have impact. I mean, a lot of those have been defined by other people, as you know, that’s, that’s the stage I’m in now. That’s what I’m supposed to do.

Tripp Lanier (10:48): right. I’m supposed to start a foundation I’m supposed to, you know, do ABC in Africa, I’m supposed to do blah, blah, blah. And it doesn’t really connect with our, you know, at who we are. It just sounds Good.

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John Jantsch (12:00): So, um, there was a line I think it’s actually, I don’t think it’s a chapter title. I think it’s a subtitle that I really loved success is survival and drag.

Tripp Lanier (12:08): Yeah, I think it is. If you look at what most of us are caught all in success, it’s to become comfortable once and for all it’s to become safe or have to have certainty once and for all it’s to have status and prestige and to be away from, you know, to avoid any kind of criticism once and for all. And really that’s, what’s kind of what our survival is these days. I gotta always be comfort. I gotta always be certain. I gotta always look good. Nobody can criticize me. And I think it’s making this fragile. I I’ve met a lot of guys. I call ’em fragile, rich guys that, that get to this place. They have so much, so many resources, so many contacts. They know they wanna make this transition in life, but they’re so afraid to go backwards. It feels like death to them. It feels like a huge threat to survival if they were to change lanes or to leverage what they’ve created in order to move in this other direction. And so it’s like, well, what if it’s not death? But it does feel that way. It is our survival. It’s our sense of survival.

John Jantsch (13:05): So, so I’ve on my own business for 30 years. And, and by some people’s measure have, you know, have experienced some level of success. And, uh, I wrote a blog post, uh, one and, and it actually became part of my, in one of my, uh, uh, books as well, is that I think a lot of people are willing to tell you how to get to the top of mountain. Nobody tells you how to get back down. Um, and , and frankly, that’s where, you know, you, you, you look at the research, uh, descents of some of the, the, the, the largest mountains are where the most fatalities actually occur. Yeah. Um, more, more so than climbing to the peak. Um, and I think that, uh, you’re kind of touching on that a little bit. I think once people experience the level of that, there is that fear of, I can’t go backwards when maybe going backwards or what, what is seen is backwards is actually a, a, a better place.

Tripp Lanier (13:50): Yeah. I sold my first company, you know, 12 years after I started, I was still in my early thirties and it was one of the most nerve wracking times in my life. I remember being out in Hawaii and people like, wow, that’s amazing. You being able to do this. They’re like, please don’t ask me what I’m doing next. And there pressure of, okay, this self-imposed pressure. I need to, you know, level it up. I gotta really take it to the, I gotta do something the next level next time around. And I was so caught up in kind of the optics of it and who I was supposed to be and who I was supposed to become. It was nerve-wracking, it, it wasn’t a, a spacious place. It didn’t feel very comforting to me to be at that level. And nonetheless, you know, from around me, people like, wow, it’s awesome, man. Congratulations, ,

John Jantsch (14:33): You know, I’ve talked to enough entrepreneurs and heard a similar, uh, story to know that this is true, that, um, there’s a really common ma um, occurrence where an entrepreneur has that first time success sells whatever they do. And now they’ve got figured out. Right. And so now they’re gonna go really big and it’s that second one that teaches ’em humility, um, whether they come through it or not, you know, a lot of times, I mean, I have heard that so many times from, from entrepreneurs and, um, you know, and I’m not sure what the answer is. Um, let me ask you a quick question. How do you help people define success then for them on their own terms? I think it

Tripp Lanier (15:08): Comes back to, well, one of the exercises I lead people through, I said, you know, just tell me your, your biggest wildest, craziest goals that you got, or these dreams or these fantasies. And most of the time, these are the pictures, right? These are images. I would be in this house and my kids would be going to this school and they would have this and they would have that and write ’em all down. And it’s wonderful. And I say, you know, okay, great. Well, let’s imagine you got all of that. Yes. You made it all happen and you felt trapped. You felt drained, you felt isolated, you felt bored, or you felt overwhelmed or you chronically worried, would we, did we make it, did we get there? And they’re like, absolutely not. Are you kidding me? And I say, okay, well, what if the, you know, that image, that outcome, that kind of fantasy, isn’t what we’re really playing for.

Tripp Lanier (15:55): It’s the experiences that are opposite of that. So instead of trapped, we feel free. Instead of drained, we feel alive instead of isolated, we feel connected and loved deeply for who we are instead of bored, overwhelmed, worried, we feel peace of mind. And I say, you know, know what, no matter what, this is, what we’re playing for. And it might be way on the high, you know, we, it might be on the other side of these amazing goals could be something that you have access to today be. And it just, you’re thinking that’s in the way, but I said, let’s keep a MI, let’s keep an eye on those experiences as we go and know that no matter what, that’s what we want, because if you wouldn’t accomplished these amazing goals and you still felt really lousy, we messed up somewhere.

John Jantsch (16:36): So, so is a Stratocaster signed by Eric Clapton on your list?

Tripp Lanier (16:41): pro yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I’ll go with that.

John Jantsch (16:46): Listeners, can’t see that I’m, I’m seeing into trips, uh, um, yeah. Office there. And I think I see a Stratocaster over. I gotta

Tripp Lanier (16:53): Tell. Right. I, I got a STR over there though. Yeah. just tend to multiply, you know, it’s weird. They multiply in here. It’s uh

John Jantsch (17:03): So let me ask you if you’ve found the answer to this, why is it so often that what we say we believe and what we actually do? Um, don’t connect, you know, our actions and our beliefs don’t line up.

Tripp Lanier (17:18): Well, I, I think we’re inherently full of crap. I think there’s a, there’s just a big disconnect between the story we like to tell us about ourselves and then what we actually do. And I think if we just inherently understand that, like that there were flawed human beings that were flawed in our perception of reality, and I’ve seen others, you know, talk about this. Great. I think Jonathan height wrote a one has written wonderfully about, you know, that, that gap between what we say, and then what we actually do. It’s, it’s fascinating to understand how the mind operates in that way. It can be jarring to recognize that, to realize that, wow, we are really poor at, at even if we’re really hard on ourselves, we tend to miss the good that we do and all the, all the, the stuff that we move forward. So I think it’s, if you just know that we we’re, we’re terrible at assess our own worth positive or negative, it’s just starting there and then saying, okay, well, could I collect data either way? And then what’s really gonna move the needle. I’ve gotta define what that means in my life. And then focus more on that.

John Jantsch (18:20): Yeah. It’s funny. I work with so many entrepreneurs that, you know, they’re never satisfied. They’re never done. I mean, the horizon, you know, keeps moving away as they move forward. Um, and, and it, it, it is really hard sometimes to, uh, to think in terms of turning around and saying, oh, well, I guess we’ve actually come quite a ways too. ,

Tripp Lanier (18:37): You know, sometimes it’s a heart attack. Sometimes it’s a stroke or a divorce or a, a business breakup, but something breaks us out of that. Yeah. That pattern that we’re in there. And, and hopefully, I, I, you know, it can seem tragic at the time, but I’ve had a, a lot of guys look back and say, that was the, that was the moment I woke up. That was the gift.

John Jantsch (18:54): Yeah. So you talk about, um, this idea of having nothing to prove, um, as sort of an element of arriving, maybe, um, talk a little bit about that and, and forgive me if I’ve misquoted you, but I, you know, I, I, that really resonated with me because I, I see a lot of people that are really struggling or creating their own struggle a lot of times, because they’re trying to prove something. Um, and, and yet sort of the most confident people you run into a lot of times are ha uh, kind of devoid of that idea.

Tripp Lanier (19:25): Yeah. I think the first thing is, is like, I listen to the language. So if I’m working with somebody’s and they’re like, I’m so run down I’m so I’m so exhausted by this thing. Or I hate doing this thing. Okay, well then why are you doing, I have to, I have to, or this says, who, right. And then this is where we start to reveal this kind of imaginary audience. And it could be people that have passed away years ago could be, dad, could be, mom, could be relative, could be, I have had guys tell me it was the guys. They went to high school with that, cast them out, you know, it’s just whatever that is. It just gets embedded in their head. And they’re constantly playing to this audience constantly proving. And so I say, well, what if I’m not asking you to stop, but what if you didn’t have anything to prove to those, those folks anymore, even yourself.

Tripp Lanier (20:13): And it’s like, it’s, it can be jarring. It can be a little weird, a little strange at first, but you say, well, I would do this. I would do ABC. And it’s like, okay. And then as a coach, it’s like, well, what if we just did a little bit more like that? And we, and we start to see if everything really does fall apart and, and we can always go back. We can always go back to playing to this audience. But I think just that real is they start to find over time. Oh, that’s the thing I do. When I hear myself saying this language I have to, or I should, I’m playing to that crowd, that imaginary, you know, audience that I have something to prove to. And, uh, if we really wanna talk about freedom, most of them are striving to have freedom from that voice. Like one day they’re gonna have enough money and they’ll have finally proven that they’re enough. And, uh, usually it’s like, well, what if that moment’s right now? What if that moment is right here right now, when you stop giving a about what those folks think.

John Jantsch (21:05): Yeah. It’s amazing at how many, uh, um, wealthy, successful, accomplished, uh, adults, you know, still hear that seventh grade science teacher that told ’em they were never gonna amount to anything. ,

Tripp Lanier (21:16): , that’s probably why they’re so wealthy and so successful on the outside. And it’s just like, but they’ve been proving that guy wrong for so long now, you know, it’s kinda tab. Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:26): Tell us, tell us a little about your podcast. Um, uh, some of, uh, the, the format and who you have on and, uh, invite people obviously to listen.

Tripp Lanier (21:34): Yeah. The new man has been around for 13 plus years. Uh, we’ve had, gosh, we’ve had millions and millions of downloads over the years. Um, I, I’ve never identified myself as a podcast. I’ve always been a, a coach. And so I don’t really follow of the typical criteria of what podcasters do, but nonetheless, I’ve been really fortunate to have everyone from Tim Ferris to, you know, mark Manson, to Alan Alda, to, you know, big wave surfing, legend, Laird Hamilton, to musicians, to Zen, masters, to criminals, people have gone to jail. And what, what it’s like to do that I’m always looking for are those stories of people that have done things on their own terms or challenged the status quo and live to tell it right. Live to come back and, and tell that story. So, uh, I’m always looking for that, that story. It’s like, well, if that guy could do it, I probably could too.

Tripp Lanier (22:22): There’s something. And so I always like, I, I try to dig out the people that are just, you know, live two doors down for me and have done amazing in that story. Cuz I think we can look at the best selling author and be like, well, he’s made from something different, but right. That guy loses two doors down. If he can do it, then I can do it too. So I, I love those kinds of stories where it, it wakes us up and maybe has a see our own life and our own opportunities differently. So

John Jantsch (22:43): The podcast running for over a decade club is not that big. So, uh, congrats on that. Yeah. So, so tell people where they can find out to find, uh, more about your work. And then I’ll, I’ll also, uh, pick up a copy of this book will make you dangerous.

Tripp Lanier (22:58): Yeah. The new man is available everywhere. You get your podcasts. If you wanna learn more about the coaching work that I do, you can go to triplaner.com and then this book will make you dangerous, is available in all formats. And you can find that@dangerousbookstore.com, if you’re outside of the us, then just go to Amazon. Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:15): Awesome. Well then we’ll have links to all those things in the show notes. So Trevor, it was great catching up with you and I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast and uh, hopefully we’ll run into you someday. Uh, when we’re all back out there on the road. Sounds

Tripp Lanier (23:27): Good. Thank you. Appreciate it, John.

John Jantsch (23:31): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in. Feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also. Did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you’ve got employees, if you’ve got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It’s called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at duct tape, marketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.